META This! Ep. 8 - Exploring Digital Fashion in the Metaverse: An Interview with Amber Bezahler of Muus Collective.
Illustration by @max_gps
META This! Series Ep. 8
Amber shares her insights on the evolving landscape of virtual worlds, the role of digital fashion in self-expression, and how brands can authentically engage in these immersive experiences. Learn about Muus Collective’s innovative mobile gaming platform and its vision for the future of fashion and ecommerce in the digital age.
Podcast Transcript:
David Schnider:
Hi, my name is David Schnider. Welcome to the Nolan Heimann Look Legal Meta This! Podcast. Today on the podcast, I have Amber Bezahler, who is the co-founder and co-CEO of Muus Collective, which is a mobile gaming studio with a focus on digital fashion.
Amber, welcome to the show.
Amber Bezahler:
Thank you, David. I really appreciate the invitation.
David Schnider:
I tend to start with the same question for most of my guests, so I'm going to subject you to the same question. How do you describe the Metaverse?
Amber Bezahler:
I define it in multiple ways because I look at it both as a builder and a consumer, the experience. I see it through different lenses.
The first one is technological. Where I see it as an immersive, highly interactive experience with a sensory-rich environment. Think about it exemplified by virtual and augmented reality.
You could think about it economically, where it's a digital economy where users can buy, and sell, and trade virtual goods and services. Things like NFTs, virtual real estate, in-game assets.
Of course, there's the educational side of it. There's immense opportunities for interactive learning and exploration. Virtual classrooms, historical reconstructions, immersive educational experiences.
But at the end of the day, what I think is most relevant are the social and cultural aspects. I see it as a platform for social interaction and community building. A place that empowers people to connect, to collaborate, and build like-minded collectives in virtual spaces. Experiences like Roblox and Fortnite, for me, really stand out because culturally, it allows for new forms of self-expression and the creation of digital identities through avatars, and virtual fashion and art.
Then to make this an even more complex response, I see the Metaverse across three timeline horizons, both near, mid, and long term. We're in the near model. Currently, and you and I have discussed this in the past, it's quite fragmented. You have platforms like we just talked about, Roblox, Fortnite, Decentraland, Meta's Horizon Worlds, et cetera. Each has its own ecosystem with quite limited interoperability. The platform's essentially operate in silos and typically users can't transfer assets, avatars or experiences seamlessly from one to the other. That's the current state of where we're at.
I think midterm, even though we have these significant technological hurdles, like standardization and interoperability to overcome, I think the industry's going to move towards more interconnected, separate Metaverses. Where different platforms communicate and share certain assets and experiences, while maintaining unique identities and user’s bases. For the people experiencing it, the users will move their avatars and digital assets between these platforms using the blockchain to verify ownership, providence, authenticity.
Then long term is where it gets really murky, the crystal ball. I think a lot of people have the vision of a unified Metaverse as we saw depicted in Ready Player One. Where it's users can access a single, cohesive virtual world, and it has seamless transition between shopping, and gaming, and socializing, and learning. It would be super cool, but not only would we have to overcome significant technical, economic, and regulatory challenges, but I don't think I'm a proponent of it because history has shown whenever there's a monopoly or one controlling entity, it often isn't to the benefit of the public. I think it could lead to issues of control and inequality that you see in the real world. Which is, the whole thing the Metaverse is trying to do is overcome some of the real world issues that we have.
I will end this long rant on a controversial statement, which is I think that many games are actually Metaverse experiences. The lines are blurring more and more. Again, I'll just go back to Fortnite and Roblox, because I previously used them as examples. To me, they're not just games, they are Metaverses where users shop, socialize, attend events and express their digital identities.
Is that what you think distinguishes a standard game from something you might call a Metaversal experience?
Amber Bezahler:
I do. I think that, again, it's very blurry. But when you have deep social connectivity, when you have the ability to transact, and when someone has the opportunity for authentic self-expression, to me that starts to move it into that realm.
David Schnider:
You mentioned Ready Player One. I think a lot of people have this idea in their head of the Metaverse as a purely 3D experience. But the examples you're giving I think are not limited to that. Do you see it as purely a 3D experience or something different?
Amber Bezahler:
I believe it can be both two or 3D. Obviously, 3D offers immersive and interactive environments, which is way more interesting. I haven't really encountered many 2D examples. The one that comes to mind is the early versions of Habbo Hotel, which I was a big fan of.
David Schnider:
Yeah. That one's new to me so explain what that is.
Amber Bezahler:
It had the sensibility of The Sims. But it was this virtual environment that was 2D, where people could interact at Habbo Hotel. It was a game that was really wonderful.
What I like about the idea of 2D, or the notion, is that it provides accessibility and ease of use for people who might not have devices that allow for 3D rendering capabilities. Again, to democratize the experience. That's great. But of course, as technology advanced, maybe 3D rendering becomes less of a barrier for entry.
Then I think there's this really interesting trend where you're seeing platforms blend 3D elements into the 2D experience. Social media platforms are using AR filters to enhance what is primarily a 2D interface with these 3D elements to try to have that sensibility.
David Schnider:
I want to ask you to elaborate on one of the things you said. You were talking about Fortnite and Roblox, and how they're not just games. My introduction to Fortnite was watching my kids play it an open world game, but I think it's much more than that. Can you talk a little bit about how those platforms are more than just games?
Amber Bezahler:
Yeah. I think ultimately, social interaction is the foundation of the Metaverse. Anywhere where users can meet, communicate, collaborate, build communities regardless of the visual format or what we call them, how we label them, to me that is a Metaverse. It's beauty in the potential as in its ability to cater to diverse user needs, tech capabilities. Really, a multi-faceted concept of providing meaningful, engaging experiences for everyone.
David Schnider:
Things like I've heard examples of people going to concerts in Fortnite, things like that.
Amber Bezahler:
Yeah, exactly. There are platforms like Wave that are just concert platforms that are virtual performances, which is really cool.
David Schnider:
Tell me about Muus Collective and what you guys are doing.
Amber Bezahler:
Thank you for asking, David. I'm the co-founder and co-CEO of Muus Collective. We're a mobile gaming studio building fashion-centric Web3 enabled mobile games that seamlessly integrate ecommerce. Our first title is a mobile fashion styling game that is currently in beta and we have plans to go worldwide very soon. We have a strategic partnership with next generation retailer, Revolve. That allows us to give our players virtual access to amazing styles and the ability the show real world brands. They also have the option to seamlessly buy products IRL in-game. We're really excited about it.
David Schnider:
In your app, will users be to build their own styles and share those styles with each other, and interact around their own designs?
Amber Bezahler:
Yeah. Players are given thematic fashion challenges with certain essential requirements. They build wonderful looks that they share with the community for appreciation. Anyone who is inspired by either something they've created or something they've seen from another stylist can shop it real world if they so desire.
David Schnider:
How did you guys decide to focus on fashion?
Amber Bezahler:
That's a great question. We believe there's a huge opportunity to open up new avenues for creativity and self-expression within fashion, beauty and gaming. Gaming is the most prevalent and it's the fastest growing form of media on the planet.
There's an organization called Global Data, and they predict that the gaming industry's going to be worth $470 billion by 2030. We've seen that the top mobile fashion titles have grossed just under two billion in lifetime revenue. We believe that we can deliver so much more than the current platforms are delivering through creativity, representation, and of course ownership.
There's also a really interesting study through a collaboration between Business of Fashion and McKinsey. It's called Opportunity in Digital Fashion and Avatars. They found that 27% of Millennials have already purchased virtual fashion in order to bolster their digital profiles and try styles they wouldn't maybe wear in the physical world, or before they would actually explore that, and just to participate more sustainability in fashion.
We think digital fashion really provides an opportunity for brands to grow and scale their businesses in a more efficient, more sustainable way. Our long term goal is ultimately to popularize the notion of a digital wardrobe to the point that it allows consumers to be more conscious about their consumption, while still allowing for limitless creative expression.
David Schnider:
That resonates with me because when you talk about younger consumers and digital fashion, I often refer to my kids. And really, I think their kids will be more so as being digital first.
Amber Bezahler:
Yeah.
David Schnider:
To me, I'm used to interacting with people, I'll do some stuff online. But to them, their friends are online, the things they do are often online. It's a more natural fit. I think we'll see more and more kids getting involved in digital fashion and digital self-expression as this becomes more the norm.
Amber Bezahler:
Absolutely. To that point, there's a Roblox 2023 Digital Expression Fashion and Beauty Trends Report. Digital fashion and avatar styling are super hot topics. These stats blow my mind. 56% of respondents find styling their avatar more important than styling themselves in the physical world.
David Schnider:
That's amazing.
Amber Bezahler:
Just sit with that for a moment. That's just crazy. And awesome. 84% of them said their physical style is inspired by their avatars. Nearly 1.6 billion digital fashion items were purchased on Roblox in the first three quarters of 2023. This shows that digital self-expression significantly influences real world fashion choices. But also, the way in which people perceive identity and how they express themselves creatively is completely shifting.
David Schnider:
I think that's one of the key differentiators with the Metaverse. I think about, with traditional games, you had a nondescript avatar so that any player could be the character. That changed a little bit with multiplayer gaming, where people started to actually customize their avatars to have a particular look in the game. But the Metaverse really takes it to a whole new level because the user customization is really how they present themselves to other people. There's really much more of a building of identity in the Metaverse.
I was wondering if you could talk a little bit about how players build identity through their avatars.
Amber Bezahler:
Yeah, absolutely. One of the things I love most about the Metaverse and gaming is that you can endlessly express yourself, changing your identity based on mood. It doesn't have to reflect your real world physical appearance if you wish. There are a couple of examples that come to mind, because I know your listeners like really concrete examples so they can go check it out.
Roblox has an AI tool that converts 3D models into avatars. It really expedites that process. That promotes self-expression through personalized digital fashion. Fortnite is one of my favorite examples. The way users can purchase and equip different skins, emotes, accessories. Blueberry, which was previously called House of Blueberry, they have a digital fashion collection on Snapchat Bitmoji that showcases how digital identities can be enriched with virtual fashion. Decentraland allows user to buy, sell and trade virtual real estate and in-game assets. It goes just beyond the physical appearance, but how you identify your persona and the things that are attached to you have that importance.
Then my favorite part of it is the opportunity for inclusivity and representation. Dove has done a beautiful job of promoting body positivity in the Metaverse. It really shows how a brand can influence digital identities by encouraging self-esteem and realistic body representation, both in real world and physical spaces.
David Schnider:
Those are good examples of the platforms and how they enable self-expression.
Let's talk about the exploration of digital identity and self-expression in the Metaverse through the lens of gaming. Can you talk about some examples of where you've seen that done well?
Amber Bezahler:
Absolutely. Going back to Fortnite, there are different collabs that have been done with different artists, mostly musical artists, where players can adopt these iconic looks and performances. One of them is Ariana Grande, and this enhances their digital self-expression.
Probably the most well-known example is The Sims 4. They've really done a great job of promoting inclusivity and self-expression. An example of that is they've added vitiligo skin details, in partnership with the fashion model Winnie Harlow.
Then you have Animal Crossing, that has done tons of cool collabs. But the New Horizons version offers a really wide range of customization options. The interesting part are not only diverse skin tones, but hairstyles and cultural outfits. It's really authentic. It allows a player to reflect their real world identities in the game.
The notion of representation is so crucial for inclusivity. Hair is such an important part of that. Dove conducted a study that eight in 10 gamers felt excluded or not good enough, due to the poor portrayals of textured hair in-game. Which is really sad. When they tried to unearth what was the reason for that, it wasn't because people, developers, didn't want to accurately reflect it. It was just the cost of resources for developing different hairstyles and small teams, often startups, struggle to portray this.
There's an amazing initiative called Code My Crown that is so important. It's been developed in collaboration with a team of Black game developers and wonderful hairstylists. It provides step-by-step coding instructions for accurately creating a variety of textured styles, while educating the developers about the historical context and cultural impact of the styles.
David Schnider:
That's on the user's side. I think the Metaverse also offers a lot of opportunities for brands. I'm curious what you think about that and how brands can take advantage of the Metaverse.
Amber Bezahler:
Yeah. When developing a Metaverse strategy, brands should really think about how to integrate immersive experiences, digital collectibles, AI-driven personalization of course. But the more important thing is how to do that natively and authentically.
I'll give a really concrete example, one that I have given in the past and I love, which is Alo's Roblox Alo Sanctuary Experience. It ticks a lot of the boxes for me.
The first is, is it a unique concept and does it provide utility? It's check, yes it does. The Alo Sanctuary offered this really unique utility with a virtual meditation space, where users could go in and unwind. So, utility. And also, concept is unique because most of the experiences on Roblox were high energy. This was a wind down and relax, get back in touch with yourself. There was novelty to it.
The second question is does it align with the brand identity? This is a strong checkbox yes, because the experience emphasized mindfulness, wellness, a healthy lifestyle, which is completely in keeping with Alo's brand.
The third, and this one's really hard, is does it sustain engagement? Unlike many of the brand collabs on Metaverse platforms, they often see an initial spike in engagement, and then it's followed by drop off. That's okay, sometimes it can be a quick hit. But Alo really succeeded here because they managed to sustain interest over time.
Why that happened, I believe, is because they checked the fourth box of integration of social elements. The experience not only provided a space of individual relaxation, but it combined the benefits of mindfulness with social connectivity. The idea that you could unwind but you could also be amongst like-minded people and share experiences, that was what was really, really powerful. That's the one that stands out most for me. There are a whole bunch of others.
Again, in the interest of giving people some cool things to check out, Balenciaga and Fortnite did such a cool collab that kicked off all the skins. The limited edition physical merchandise with avatar virtual skins. Burberry partnered with Mythical Games on an NFT collection, which was the Blankos Block Party. That was unique digital accessories and in-game wearables. Ralph Lauren has partnered with Zepeto for virtual clothing and interactive experiences. They did a virtual holiday themed winter wonderland, which was really cool. Dior just did a VR fashion show, where they allowed audiences to experience the latest collection in an immersive virtual environment. Then you have so many others. Animal Crossing has basically collaborated with everyone. Tommy Hilfiger, Marc Jacobs. There are all these virtual fashion collections that really allow people to express themselves in-game. Dolce and Gabbana did an NFT collection that was so cool, and it features digital wearables with also physical couture pieces. Then you have much-beloved brands, like Barbie getting in with collabs with Balmain, where they created digital and physical collections that combines high fashion and this iconic, much-loved.
There are hundreds and hundreds of examples, but those are some of the ones that come to mind.
David Schnider:
Yeah. I think one of the key points you made is that brands have to present authentically. If they're going to be activating in the Metaverse, doing collaborations, putting together games, anything like that, they need to find ways to present their brand that are meaningful to consumers, but also reflect the values of the brand and add something to it. Do you have thoughts on if brands want to get more involved in the Metaverse, how they can do that?
Amber Bezahler:
Absolutely. The first one is to keep the experiences native as possible to the platform itself. When possible, partner with creators on the platform that can help bring the experience to life. People who are known entities that users, players, already know and love. Then make it approachable.
A couple of examples. Carolina Herrera worked with Roblox to bring their items to life inside the game, and they did that in concert with a really popular creator on the platform. That's how they went to market and it was really successful. Then Prada worked with Candy Crush to give away perfume samples. It was just such a great experience because it aligned really well with the perfume. It was called Candy, so it aligned thematically. It was just really cool that you could have a tangible, real world outcome from playing the game. Then getting a sample, that surprise and delight moment, really increased the likelihood of purchase. They had a lot of great sell through and lift on the product after doing that collab.
David Schnider:
A lot of brands have tried different things in the Metaverse, although I don't think anything has really been a huge success yet. There's still a lot of experimentation. What do you see is the future? Where are brands going on the Metaverse?
Amber Bezahler:
Experiential retail I think is one of the main areas where brands can offer that virtual experience that resonates and drives engagement. There are a couple different reasons for this.
From the brand's side, they have deep sustainability considerations. Supply chain is getting more and more complex and broken. The ability to allow people to have a meaningful try before you buy experience, where they can make a better informed decision is immense. Also, these platforms provide incredible amounts of data. From an analytics perspective, you could start to see trends about certain styles, and better understand consumer purchase propensity, and where people might want to invest their real world dollars. That's on the brand's side.
Then on the user's side, it is so much more enjoyable when you can create an avatar that looks very similar to you, and equip it with things that make you feel great, and have an experience. Then think, "Well, that brings me joy. I think I'd really like that in the real world." Then alternatively, if you want to do something fantastical, wear something that you could never wear because it's gravity defying, or you don't have wings or something, but it allows for self-expression. But it could still be tied to a brand, to have a moment that is really special, and unique, and is memorable.
I think that's where it's going, where it's much more seamlessly integrated ecommerce, but in these moments of surprise, delight, joy, with the brand being part of that experience. Some of the things that come to mind that are done well are Coachella did a Fortnite Takeover. They created virtual fashion mirroring the physical event L'Oreal has done a cool collab with Snap. Walmart is bringing AR for virtual try-on in their stores. Revive has a Match My Look tool that uses AI and augmented reality to recommend beauty products based on images, that enhances the customer experience. It goes on and on. Those types of things are additive and they don't detract from the experience. They're not crass tactics. They definitely add to the experience.
David Schnider:
I've got one more question for you. I think, in some sense, you've already answered it. But the question is do you think that the Metaverse is a trend, or that it is something that is here to stay and will be a fundamental part of our experience in the future?
Amber Bezahler:
I definitely think it's here to stay. I feel like we've had a seismic shift culturally, in how we think about ourselves and how we interact with one another. The acceleration of technology, the inevitably of AI, the way real world experiences can be challenging, especially as we have socio economic, geopolitical pressures on the world, I think we all take refuge sometimes in our virtual worlds. I can only see that trend increasing because it democratizes the experience in many ways, and it allows for everyone to have an ability to express themselves authentically, to have agency, and to have fun experiences.
David Schnider:
I think you're probably right, but I guess time will tell. I appreciate you coming on. Let people know, if they want to learn more about you or about Muus Collective, where they can get more information?
Amber Bezahler:
Absolutely. You can visit our website at muuscollective.com, which is spelled M-U-U-S Collective.com.
David Schnider:
Great. Well, thank you very much for coming on. I appreciate your insights.
Amber Bezahler:
Thank you, David. I really appreciate it.