META This! Ep. 7 - VGamers, heads up! Nightdive and Atari are bringing back lost classic games.

Illustration by @max_gps

META This! Series Ep. 7

Larry Kuperman of Nightdive, and parent company Atari, want to preserve oldies like System Shock and Turok 3.

Podcast Transcript:

David Schnider: Welcome to the Look Legal Meta This! podcast. My name is David Schnider. I am a partner in Nolan Heimann. I am joined today by Morgan Linton. Morgan is the CTO and co-founder of Bold Metrics. And Bold Metrics provides AI solutions for retailers and brands to improve the sizing and fit of their apparel so that they can improve conversion rates, reduce returns, and improve sustainability for their product. But I asked Morgan to join me today because he is also well versed on the Metaverse. He has been speaking on AR and VR in the marketplace for a number of years. I actually watched a TED talk that he did a number of years ago, back in 2017, and he and I have had discussions since then about the development of AR and VR in the Metaverse and how these technologies are changing people's lives. And so I wanted to have him on today to talk to us about it. Morgan, welcome to the show. 

Morgan Linton: Thank you, David. Honored to be here. Really appreciate you having me. 

David Schnider:  I want to start by asking you a, a very basic question that I ask most of our guests on the show, which is, how would you describe the Metaverse? 

Morgan Linton: Yeah, good question. I think there's a lot of confusion about the Metaverse today, and I think really, I always bias towards the most simple definition of the Metaverse, which also means that the Metaverse is already here. It's not something that's coming, it's here, it's been here for a while. I, I really believe fundamentally the Metaverse is just a way to interact in 3D virtual worlds over a network-full stop. And so, I think that if you want to go back in time to see like early Metaverses, I think Second Life is one of the examples I oftentimes refer to as a very early active Metaverse where you had people communicating and interacting together in 3D virtual worlds. People having jobs and making actual money in it, building houses, having commerce. And then I think there's, you know, the other side to the Metaverse that today has proven to be the most popular model, which is in gaming. And I think probably the most, the two most active Metaverses today are Fortnite and Roblox. And those both generate a tremendous amount of revenue, have a huge amount of users, and have people doing, you know, kind of going back to interacting together in a 3D virtual world. 

David Schnider: When you talk about the Metaverse, especially examples like Fortnite and Roblox, how's that different from just a website or a standard console game? 

Morgan Linton: Yeah, yeah. Really the comparison that I used and that I talked about in my TED Talk as well, is it's really the difference between saying, Hey, what's the difference between the Sears catalog and the Sears store? That's oftentimes how I compare it - right now the internet and e-commerce is just a catalog online. I would say almost a hundred percent of e-commerce stores have a white background and have images of products just like you would have in a catalog. And when you look at a Metaverse experience, it really mirrors what we have in the real world where you have structures and you're able to walk in 3D space. And, you know, whether you're playing a game in those worlds or whether you're building something or interacting like we would in the real world, I think those are, you know, all kind of part and parcel with, with Metaverse experiences. But it really just comes down to interacting in a, in a 3D virtual world. 

David Schnider: Yeah, I think there's a misconception that when we say 3D, that necessarily means VR, virtual reality, or AR, augmented reality. Yes. Yes. Uh, and I, I had a guest on the show who said, no, that's not the case. In fact, we have a word for it. When you're just on a screen, we call it pancake mode. 'cause it's, even though it's a 3D environment, it's a 2D interface. But do you think that the VR AR is a necessary part of the Metaverse or not? 

Morgan Linton: No. No. I don't think it ever has been. And I don't think it will be for a long time until it is, and then maybe it will be someday. But, um, you know, kind of going back to these examples of Second Life originally, Fortnite and Roblox today, you know, none of those are experienced in VR or AR. And I think that, you know, over the next 10 years as we see the Metaverse develop, particularly around commerce and, and e-commerce in particular, it will not be in VR and AR. Now, fast forward 50 years from now, sure, probably, probably will be, but these are, these are kind of the early days and, and you know, this is how it starts. I, I, I kind of liken this to, I had a PC when I was a kid with a very early version of Microsoft's word that when you wanted to make something bold, the text just changed colors. When you wanted to underline it, it would change to a different color. You couldn't see if it was bold or underlined until you printed it. And then you would see that we're in that same stage of Metaverse. It's just very, very early. But I think that that is a common misconception and why people think, oh, the Metaverse isn't gonna take off. It's not realistic. Who's gonna wear these headsets? And they're missing the fact that it's going to use current hardware today, both computer hardware, phone hardware and video game hardware to start. 

David Schnider: So, from your perspective, since I know you've spent time personally in the Metaverse, what's the difference between the experience of just playing a game and actually being in a Metaverse environment? What is it that excites you about being in a Metaverse environment? 

Morgan Linton: Yeah, I mean, what excites me in the most about being in the Metaverse is the ability to mirror physical commerce in a virtual world. And a good example is like, if you look at an apparel brand, let's a company like Nike, if you go to a Nike store, that is an experience like Nike has put a lot of time into making a very, like immersive, very well designed, cool hip store. When you go to the Nike website, nobody would say, oh, this is just like the Nike store. It's not, it's, it's just like a catalog with Nike products in it. And so I think it's gonna be so cool for brands to be able to create that analog online because not everybody lives near a Nike store. I think most people don't actually, and this is really why, you know, I use this reference a lot, but it's important 'cause I think it's very relevant. 

Morgan Linton: The Sears catalog originally came out and the, the idea behind this was that like, you didn't live close enough to be able to buy these things in department stores, and this was the way for people to access this. And I don't think they're going to add another 20,000 Nike stores to the United States. And so how do you provide that brand experience for people that aren't able to go to the physical store? And now you have the ability to provide this really immersive, visually stunning experience that represents the brand and you can do things that you can't do in the real world, which, which I think is really exciting as well and will become the norm. And I, I honestly think we're all gonna look like dinosaurs even 15 years from now looking back at what we defined as e-commerce. It'll still probably be called e-commerce, but this will look incredibly ancient in the not too distant future. 

David Schnider: You know, that's interesting to me because we've been talking at our firm over the last few years about the impact of entertainment on retail and how experiential entertainment is moving into retail, especially post pandemic, as people need to repurpose properties and, that retailers who are surviving are creating more of an experience for their customers. And obviously the Metaverse provides a real opportunity to extend that. I'm curious, what do you think that will actually look like as people extend the shopping experiences into the Metaverse? 

Morgan Linton: Yeah, you know, I think at first, and it's interesting 'cause there've been a couple articles about this that have cited that early on, like what's happening right now is probably a bit of a miss because right now you see a lot of brands trying to replicate their physical storefronts in the Metaverse. And a good example is like, you know, if you look at a brand like Patagonia, sure they can make a Patagonia store in the Metaverse that looks just like a Patagonia store in San Francisco. You walk in, it looks exactly the same. And what I think is going to happen is very soon brands are going to realize, and this is not just in apparel, this is in really any, any space. Wait a second, why would I need physical walls? There's no need for that. There's no crime. 

Morgan Linton: You don't need to, you don't need to lock the store at night. Why wouldn't I wanna shop for Patagonia products in Patagonia on top of a mountain walking around the woods on trails and there's clothes strewn throughout the experience. I think we're gonna see an entirely new way to showcase products. And this is gonna span everybody, you know, Apple has done a really good job making these beautiful Apple stores. At the same time, what's always struck me about Apple stores that's so off brand for Apple that they'll be able to do such a better job in the Metaverse is Apple stores have a very heavy security presence. When you go towards an Apple store, there are, especially like Apple stores in San Francisco, like the one in Union Square, there is a police car parked in front and there are police officers there and there are security guards everywhere in the store. 

Morgan Linton: It's a weird feeling that's very off brand for Apple, even though the store itself is very beautiful and there's lots of glass and the inside design, I don't think that Apple's brand is part and parcel with high security and police, the brand is much more famous for very clean, crisp simplicity of design. And so I think when Apple is able to do an Apple store in the Metaverse, it probably won't be laden with security guards. There'll probably be no security guards, it'll probably be much more on brand. And so I think you're gonna be able to kind of free yourself from some of these unfortunate realities of modern cities or modern American cities where you do have to have these really heavy duty security presences in stores because of just challenges that we have with, with theft in modern society. And I think you'll be able to really focus on a much more cool and immersive brand experience, but I don't think you'll have this concept of a store where you've got four walls and you've got windows and you have stairs. I think going back to that Patagonia example, you'll be able to do it in these really cool virtual worlds. Like rather than go to a Nike store, I wanna go to Planet Nike. 

David Schnider: Yeah, it'd be fun to run around their track before buying the shoes. Right? 

Morgan Linton: Exactly. Exactly. 

David Schnider: So, so one side of this is changing the shopping experience for physical goods that we receive in the real world. Um, but there's another side to this, which is the digital goods that people will wear or use online. 

Morgan Linton: Yes.  

David Schnider: Do you think that's, I mean right now for a lot of people, especially my age, that doesn't make much sense. Why do I care about virtual tennis shoes? But I think that's changing with younger generations. And how impactful do you think that will be? 

Morgan Linton: I mean, it's already massively impactful because if you look at just Fortnite alone, Fortnite does over $3 billion a year. I believe last, last I checked, we can fact check this, but I believe over four or over $3 billion a year just in digital outfits. And I, myself personally probably spend $20 to $30 a month on outfits in Fortnite. And I'm 42 years old. And I think that for me, like I play Fortnite, I like playing the game. I like changing the outfits. It's a fun part of the game. I think that that's something when you look at, you know, a much younger generation, like if you look at the average person that's playing Roblox that's say 10 years old, they are starting to see a different set of values. There's an article in the Wall Street Journal that was saying that kids are now asking for their allowance more often in Robucks rather than in regular dollars because they would rather have something, you know, they're spending their time, that is their entertainment time in a virtual world. 

Morgan Linton: They're not spending it necessarily, they don't come home from school and go, oh, I want to change into this outfit and go play outside. They go, oh, I want to go play in Roblox and changing this outfit in Roblox. And so we have a shifting really of like how we value goods. For me, I've been in the digital asset space for a very long time. So, I actually have valued digital assets above physical assets for, for I think longer than most because I started with domain names and got into crypto, and now I'm into NFTs. And I, I really like the permanence of digital assets, but I think there's a reset happening with a younger generation where that is now baked in. And so if you say, well, the Nike sweater that I got in Roblox, I never have to wash. It has the ability to change the color whenever I want. 

Morgan Linton: It has upgrades and things like that. Oh, this, this, this physical sweater I got after washing it 20 times, the color is faded, I need to get a new one. I think there's a sense of permanence and a sense of ownership around digital assets that is probably being dramatically underestimated now, but will be very impactful in the future. And there are companies, you know, like, like Adidas, that have really made pretty big forays into creating digital assets for the Metaverse. It's still early. So the uptake is, you know, relatively small right now, but they're definitely dipping their toes in the water. And if you look at, you know, Nike acquiring artifacts and really owning that digital shoe market and some of those digital artifact shoes, you know, being valued at over $10,000, it's there. It's, it's happening. It's just very nascent. So 

David Schnider: I wanna explore a little more when you talk about the permanence of digital assets, because I think most people tend to think of digital assets as somewhat ephemeral. You don't have a physical thing you can hold oftentimes with an N F T. You don't even own the artwork, you just have the certificate. Not always, but oftentimes. So when you talk about the permanence of digital assets, can you explain a little more what you mean? 

Morgan Linton: Yeah, I mean, I really think that NFTs are going to change the world in, in two foundational ways. The one way that nobody really talks about, 'cause it's just not as cool or fun to talk about, is, is just as a data transport mechanism. So I think that NFTs will replace like json as a standard for passing key value pairs and, and data like that in a, in a traceable way. And they'll be a lot of useful things for that. Right now, NFTs are thought of a lot of times when it comes to like art or digital collectibles and, you know, you have just full verifiability on the blockchain. And for me, I see that as just an incredible sense of permanence that you don't have with, with traditional collectibles or artwork, right? Like right now, there is not a single company in the world that can tell you, if I decide I wanna buy a Picasso for $50 million, there's nobody that can tell me with a hundred percent certainty. 

Morgan Linton: It's an original Picasso. Someone can say with a, with 99% certainty, it's a Picasso, but not a hundred percent certainty. If I buy a, you know, Damien Hertz has a, has a really nice NFT collection, or art available as an NFT Dens is another really good example of very more like traditional art, NFT. Those are, those are fully verifiable. So when you buy that, you know a hundred percent that what you bought is what you thought you bought. And as long as you know how to secure NFTs, and this is where, you know, a a an understanding of cold storage and, you know, devices like ledgers is absolutely critical for anybody that's doing any kind of high value NFT investing, then you, you have such a sense of permanence. I have such a comfortable feeling of that, okay, if my house burns down, if I'm robbed anything like that, I only lose all this stuff that doesn't really have much value to me. The stuff that has value to me is the digital assets. And that is, while, you know, you can never be a hundred percent secure, much more secure than even having something in a, in a bank vault in, in all honesty, 

David Schnider: That's an, it's an interesting inversion of what we think of as tangible and permanent. And I think it, I think you're right, that's gonna be more second nature to people, especially kids growing up now who are digital first in the way they approach things.  I wanted to go back to something else you said and ask you about the interaction on Metaverse platforms because I, you know, we've talked about four nine Roblox where people get together and game, but, and in places like Second Life, I I think it's more than just gaming, right? It's really about the individual and personal interaction. 

Morgan Linton: Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, Roblox is probably the best like modern example of that in a Metaverse where, you know, kids come home from school and they get on Roblox together and at 4:30 we're gonna all get on Roblox and we're gonna play Roblox for an hour. And that's how they're playing together. And so, you know, for a long time, and this is somewhat a US problem, it doesn't exist as much in Europe and Asia. In Europe and Asia, there has been a general acceptance of gaming that has come much slower to the United States. For whatever reason, the US has a lot of time seen gaming as, oh, it's a, it's a waste of time. It doesn't, it doesn't, doesn't do anything for you. You should, you should be outside doing something, you should be reading a book. And it's really interesting because it, it makes me think of, I found a very early ad, I'm putting together an article about this, and I found a very early newspaper article that was saying like, don't remember when sometime like I think early 19 hundreds saying, don't let your kids read fiction books. 

Morgan Linton: It will rot their brain. And originally when fiction books came out, it had the same stigma that TV had and now video games have, which is, oh, it's a waste of time. It rots your brain when you really look at it. Chess is oftentimes heralded as this intellectual game where there's so much strategy, you have to think through these moves. A game like Fortnite has in every second of gameplay, close to an infinite number, more moves than chess does, and an incredible amount of strategy. And when you see people playing it, especially at the professional level, and I've, I've flown out to see like FNCS in person to see people play that the type of strategy and like split second decision making that you have to do in games like that. I believe we'll find over time far and beyond exceeds the acumen required to play a game of chess. 

Morgan Linton: And I think chess has just been through history heralded, as this game of the academics. But I think Fortnite, I think League of Legends, Dota two, a lot of these games require incredibly deep thinking, a ton of strategy and also collaboration and a lot of the things that we appreciated about teamwork and saying to kids, oh, you should be on a, you should be on a baseball team, you should be on a soccer team. Well, but it's also, you're gonna get a lot of that working together in Roblox, building a amusement park or working together and playing a game and putting your heads together to solve a puzzle. It's just moving it to a different medium. 

David Schnider: Yeah. I had this experience years ago. I went to the E three game conference and they were unveiling the new Xbox and one of the big announcements was that they had video chatting built in. And I was just, I couldn't understand why anybody would want that. And literally that day I came home and found my kids playing on their Xbox with video, chatting with their cousins. And, and more recently, you know, I see my kids interacting online on Discord, which is chat rooms with friends. Yeah. One was even playing a game and he is talking to people. I said, how are you doing that without the headset? He said, oh, I'm not in the game chat. I'm on Discord with a bunch of friends, some of whom are playing and some who aren't. Yeah, exactly. They realize that it's, yeah, for kids these days, they're the, there's this real, a lot of their social interaction and they can have huge social circles. They can go to concerts and movies together on these platforms. Again, it enables them to interact with people without having to physically drive to malls or other places.

Morgan Linton: It. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's, it's a good thing. I think that we have to get rid of the stigma in the United States. Asia is way far ahead of us in this respect, especially places like South Korea or Japan where it's baked into normal life. And in, in South Korea you can even, you know, training for eSports can actually be part of a, a college curriculum there. I think we really need to look at this and go, okay, there are games like football and baseball and basketball. They've been around for a really long time and are fun games and kids can play together. And there are games like Fortnite and League of Legends and Dota two and Overwatch that are modern games that also require a bunch of strategy and a bunch of collaboration and working together as a team. And one isn't better than the other. 

Morgan Linton: It's just a different way of interacting together. And I think we can, you know, with the Metaverse really bridge some gaps because when you also look at, it was really interesting. I had a very profound experience that I wrote a medium article about at BlizzCon a few years ago, BlizzCon, I think it was 2019, right before the, the Covid Pandemic. And I went to that, which you know, is Blizzard Activision's, big conference, huge conference, actually over 40,000 people go to it. And I thought it was so cool seeing all these people together. And I ended up having all these great conversations and I was talking to somebody for quite a while, one evening that was in a wheelchair that was saying, this has changed my life because I grew up and I couldn't go play football with all the other kids. I couldn't play soccer with the other kids. 

Morgan Linton: I started playing a World of Warcraft and suddenly I connected with other people and I built these friendships and now I fly out every year and I see everybody in person. And yeah, I'm the only one in our group of friends that's in a wheelchair. And that hasn't prevented me from being a core part of the group from day one. It's so freeing, it's so wonderful to do this. And I talked to other people that said, yeah, I have a lot of social anxiety and I've gotten teased at school and I was never able to do this stuff and now I can through this. And so I think what we're doing is really allowing for an evening of the playing field and letting everybody be together, appreciate each other, play together regardless of who you are, where you come from, any physical disabilities, anything that, and I think that is so powerful and so often overlooked and I, I really left BlizzCon with just such an appreciation for how much good gaming does for the world. And then, you know, projecting forward into what we're talking about, how much good the Metaverse will do for the world, because we don't connect with each other on two dimensional websites. We will connect with each other in 3D immersive worlds. 

David Schnider: So I, I wanna shift gears a little bit and just to finish up, ask you a little bit about the hardware side, because I know, I think you've been playing with VR and AR hardware for quite a while, right? 

Morgan Linton: Yeah, I, I started with, and I actually found, I was cleaning my garage the other week. I found my Oculus DK2 um, which I think came out I wanna say in like 2014 maybe. Um, and so that's when I started with, uh, with VR. 

David Schnider: And so how, how does that technology change the experience for you? 

Morgan Linton: Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, VR adds immersion, so that's a whole different thing. That being said, I, I spend almost no time in, in VR these days. I have an Oculus Quest 2 and I've, I've had every single Oculus product since the DK2 and will continue to buy them, but more as an enthusiast than as something that I see is ready for everyday use. Which is why, kind of going back to what we were saying earlier, I think that the Metaverse has to be decoupled from VR and AR. Like I think I will probably be very active in the Metaverse, most likely on a PC at first and then probably on like a PlayStation after that. And then probably on my phone and then maybe in VR and AR once it gets there, it's not there yet. And so I think it's just gonna take some time. 

Morgan Linton: It's a much better, much more immersive experience, but there isn't the application support of the communities on there yet. And I think Meta learned that pretty quickly um, yeah, trying to, trying to build out Horizons and seeing where that would go. Great concept way too early. And then I think there's some misunderstanding about, you know, what Apple's doing with the Vision Pro and Spatial computing. I see Spatial computing initially as a replacement for your phone and your iPad. I think you'll use it to be able to do things that you would normally do on those devices. So, you know, using things like Zoom, like we're using right now, I think you'll end up using that on a Vision Pro. Doing emails, using Twitter, using apps, I think is what you'll use that for initially out of the gate. And then there'll be some blurring. And I do think that there won't be necessarily one go-to for the Metaverse, it'll just be based on how you want to use it. VR is, you know, an enclosed system whereas AR you can interact with the rest of the world and still see the room that you're in. I think Metaverse will be available for both. But you know, boy, both these technologies are still so, so early in their life cycles. 

David Schnider: You and I have both been posting on LinkedIn about the Apple product. And so I wanted to ask you, do you think it's dead on arrival, a game changer, a paradigm shift or something else? 

Morgan Linton: I think you and I are in agreement on this one. I think it's a paradigm shift and like all paradigm shifts, you know, it starts with, I always think of the book Crossing the Chasm and you know, it all starts with the, with the early adopters. And it just reminds me a lot of when the iPhone came out and I got an iPhone, I remember talking to my parents about it and they said, yeah, we get that you have an iPhone, but like you're a techie person. And like, yeah, you want to be able to have the web on your phone and you want to be able to have these apps. You know, we're just a different generation. Like we just need a phone to be a phone. And I remember saying to my parents, <laugh>, well sure until this is what a phone is and until like, your habits change. 

Morgan Linton: And I said, I envision a future where you won't be able to imagine having a phone without apps on it. And they looked at me like I was crazy. Now my parents, I think both have the newest generation iPhone and obviously do not use flip phones. And so I think the same thing will happen with the Vision Pro. I wrote an article, I think that the title was something like the Vision Pro may not be for you, but the vision product line will be for everyone. And Right. I, I really firmly believe that Apple's going to create, you know, their initial market. People like me will absolutely be in it. I will get the vision, the, the moment that it comes out. I can't wait to play with it. I think it'll be really cool. I think it'll be somewhat limited in use outta the gate, but when Apple puts out products, they really do an exceptional job. 

Morgan Linton: I think it will show what's possible. And then, you know, their, their vision, you know, I believe is especially coming out with a product that has the word pro appended to it, you know, they will have a, a vision line that is not Vision Pro that is less expensive. And I do think that physical screens are going away. The screen on your phone, the screen on your laptop, the screens that we have all over our house that we call televisions that just got thinner and thinner over time, those will go away. I think that that augmented reality and spatial computing will replace it. And Apple's paving the way, but paradigm shifts take time, right? I think the first, you know, kind of popular use of consumer cell phones was the eighties. It took until the two thousands for it to really take hold. And so, you know, spatial computing over the next 10 years will start to take hold. I think we'll look back in the 2040s and go, wow, that was weird. Remember we had screens all over the place. 

David Schnider: All right, well we're, we're out of time, but Morgan, I could probably talk to you for another couple of hours about this stuff, but I appreciate you being on, I appreciate you sharing your knowledge with us. Why don't you let people know how they can find you? 

Morgan Linton: Yeah, absolutely. Well, well first, David, thank you so much for having me on. I, it's an honor and I, as you can tell, love talking about it and, and, and likewise could talk with you for hours for, um, yeah. How to get ahold of me. Twitter is at Morgan Linton. You can also find me on threads at Metaverse Morgan. 

David Schnider: All right. Great. It was a pleasure talking to you. Thank you.

Morgan Linton: Thank you so much. 

David Schnider: And to everyone listening, catch you next time on Meta This! -  goodbye.